--- Log opened Wed Aug 06 11:40:13 2008
11:40 -!- drbawb [n=robbie@mke-66-97-126-69.milwpc.com] has joined #plan9
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11:40 < rakzom> Hi
11:40 -!- Irssi: Join to #plan9 was synced in 6 secs
11:40 < uriel> mycroftiv: then you are very welcome
11:40 < Alvin^> 'lo
11:40 < uriel> mycroftiv: just ignore the assholes like fgb and me, and pay attention to the nice people like anothy and steve
11:41 < mycroftiv> everyone please welcome very new plan9 users, we have become inspired to create a distributed filesharing / computing system and we know that plan 9 is the tool for doing such things
11:41 < uriel> (and sqweek and many others, actually there are quite a bunch of nice people in #plan9)
11:41 < mycroftiv> i would never ignore fgb, i appreciate his contrib very very much
11:43 < mycroftiv> we are worried that we are responsible for sources being down because we have been downloading and installing a lot and I saw the filesystem had filled up, maybe because of logging?
11:44 < sqweek> haha
11:44 < sqweek> not your fault ;)
11:45 < sqweek> at any rate, the last thing any set of developers need is to be seperated from their users
11:45 < sqweek> or maybe i've just been reading too much linuxhatersblog
11:46 < olegfink> I have had my very own one right in a terminal emulator window for the past few days. no need for blogging software, browsers and such.
11:46 < mycroftiv> well, we have certainly been learning a lot -- from attempting installs on just about everything, it seems that qemu is amost the only virtualization platform that supports Plan 9 without difficulties? perhaps Xen also? i dont think we had any xen installers
11:47 < sqweek> vmware is supposed to work afaik
11:47 < sqweek> so does lguest
11:47 < drbawb> a lot of people were having problems with vmware and virtualbox iirc
11:47 < uriel> 9vx
11:48 < olegfink> yes, 9vx is about the easiest way to get plan9 up and running
11:48 < sqweek> there was some trick to it... right, remove the cd from vmware's config
11:48 < uriel> vmware has trouble because of the cd and the vga accel, there should be a patch that fixes the vga accel problem, and once one knows how to remove the cdrom device (or change it to scsi), plan9 on vmware works *really* well
11:48 < olegfink> by the way, seems the virtualbox thread came to nothing?
11:49 < mycroftiv> the wiki says that vmware has to be set to use the cdrom different and it also mentions another tweak to the .ini, and i dont think people were carefully checking and following those directions. hopefully we can get someone to test and document it carefully.
11:49 < fgb> yep, it even supports dma
11:50 < fgb> it's 10 times faster than qemu
11:51 < mycroftiv> im working on figuring out how to network from qemu so that plan9 can properly serve the external internet, and how to enable basic directory sharing...trivial stuff i know, but we are pretty much 'random people off the street' in terms of technical understanding
11:52 < drbawb> fgb - qemu was pretty fast for me.... the thought of something being faster kind of scares me :p (i also didn't have kqemu modules or w/e loaded)
11:53 < sqweek> the slow part about qemu is the installer
11:53 < drbawb> took me no longer than say an xp install
11:53 < drbawb> then again - ... this isn't XP - so maybe it is slow ;p
11:53 < sqweek> no dma in qemu so its i/o sucks. did you install with venti?
11:53 < drbawb> No it's Fossil only
11:54 < sqweek> probably helps... i only have limited experience but i never really noticed the lack of dma until i set up a machine with venti
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11:55 < uriel> fgb: for me it is like 100 times faster than qemu, but that is just me
11:55 < uriel> and the way to remove the cdrom is non-obvious, you have to actually *remove* it, not just dissable it
11:55 < drbawb> hmm, I guess I'll have to 'stumble' across a copy of vmware for linux and try it sometime ;p
11:56 < sqweek> well i'm going to get some sleep
11:56 < sqweek> man i'm going to ache tomorrow
11:56 < uriel> sqweek: nah, you got 9vx, no need for vmware
11:56 < uriel> s/ sqweek/ drbawb/
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11:57 < uriel> good night sqweek
11:57 < sqweek> xD
11:57 < sqweek> are you using irssi uriel?
11:57 < mycroftiv> i have to sleep also, i will probably take a break from trying to organize people to install until sources is back up, but once it is back up we are all crusading to get people to download, install and get gridded
11:57 < uriel> sqweek: no!
11:57 < uriel> mycroftiv: why do you need sources? are the .iso's down?
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11:58 < fgb> uriel, it get's faster if you run a cpu server in vmware and drawterm to it
11:58 < mycroftiv> uriel: for contrib ? is that mirrored elsewhere?
11:58 < olegfink> mycroftiv, those people are some research group?
11:58 -!- cr9 [n=chromium@c-71-225-80-133.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #plan9
11:58 < uriel> drawterm must die, period
11:58 < mycroftiv> olegfink: no, we are just random average every day computer users
11:59 < mycroftiv> olegfink: who suddenly think that being able to connect our machines over the net via plan 9 is the best idea ever
11:59 < uriel> mycroftiv: it should be mirrored somewhere, I think KillerX had a mirror, I don't know really
11:59 < cr9> drawterm doesn't even stay alive long enough for me to give it commands, it instantly crashes. i love that
11:59 < drbawb> (well maybe a bit above average... I consider my 'parents' average)
11:59 < uriel> (I think there is another mirror in 9grid.es)
11:59 -!- fwiffo [n=user@unaffiliated/fwiffo] has joined #plan9
11:59 < uriel> there is a mirrors wiki page, but I have no idea if it is up to date
11:59 < olegfink> kix.in and 9grid.es are two sources mirrors I know of
12:00 < mycroftiv> olegfink: thanks, thats very helpful
12:01 < olegfink> hm, I think I wasn't following, is 9gris.us a grid?
12:02 < olegfink> I know that 9grid.^(es fr) are not
12:04 < Alvin^> I'm getting peculiar errors about lack of permissions on /dev/draw/new, and I also get various file-does-not-exist messages on fshalt. It's running, so could it be some kind of compatibility issue?
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12:05 < Alvin^> all of this under glenda
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12:06 < mycroftiv> alvin: i dont know, but i think the permissions might have been related to not fully setting up networking -- dunno at all about fshalt
12:07 < Alvin^> I'm fairly confident that networking is configured properly
12:09 -!- now [n=chatzill@host-70-45-54-147.onelinkpr.net] has joined #plan9
12:09 < mycroftiv> alvin: i thought you didnt bind the loopback though? i didnt see that in the commands you gave as your net setup
12:10 < mycroftiv> hello now
12:10 < Alvin^> I uncommented it in my profile
12:10 < now> hi
12:10 < mycroftiv> oh, so after reoot with that change, still same issue?
12:11 < Alvin^> yeah
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12:12 < mycroftiv> hello
12:12 < HK48> sup
12:12 < HK48> So yeah I have the iso burnt but it wont load in Q
12:13 < HK48> for some reason
12:13 < mycroftiv> burnt? why not just us the .iso image file if you are using Q?
12:13 < HK48> oh I can do that?
12:13 < HK48> rtight I try that now
12:13 < mycroftiv> HK48: yeah thats how you generally use a virtual machine, you just use the .iso
12:13 < HK48> ok
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12:20 < mycroftiv> are there existing tools to let p9 update what services are available where as various machines at various IP addresses go on and offline, or will that need to be implemented as a set of user scripts? we are going to be doing file sharing and web serving from plan 9 machines mostly on standard home desktops getting IP via dhcp
12:20 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DF574.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #plan9
12:21 < olegfink> you may want to look at nemo's work on octopus, http://lsub.org/ls/octopus.html
12:22 < mycroftiv> olegfink: thank you, that looks very relevant
12:23 < Alvin^> I get the permission denied thing with abaco. When running links in graphical mode, it produces a similar result but without the error message. links without graphical mode says it has run out of memory, while I have a whole 128MB (which p9 says it detects)
12:25 -!- Tonik|away is now known as Tonik
12:25 < HK48> k, Q doesnt recognise  the disk image either
12:26 < mycroftiv> HK48: i know we have had several people install in Q, im not sure if anyone using it is around right now to help though
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12:26 < fwiffo> a raw image seems to work best.
12:27 < HK48> how do I make it a raw image?
12:27 < Alvin^> HK48: make sure you bunzip it
12:27 < HK48> its unziped
12:28 < fwiffo> qemu-img, or something. what image are you talking about?
12:28 < HK48> the disk image
12:28 < HK48> Im a macfag yeah yeah
12:28 < olegfink> where did you get the image?
12:28 < HK48> lol
12:29 < HK48> bell labs
12:29 < mycroftiv> HK48: you should md5sum it and check to see it is valid
12:29 < olegfink> then you are probably talking about ISO?
12:29 < HK48> \yes
12:29 < olegfink> you should use it as a CD image or whatever it is called in your qemu frontend
12:29 < olegfink> not as a hard disk image
12:30 < HK48> the iso is burnt to cd
12:30 < mycroftiv> HK48: you dont use the cd, you tell Q to treat the .iso file AS a cd for the virtual machine
12:31 < HK48> mycoftiv: I'll see
12:32 < mycroftiv> HK48
12:33 < mycroftiv> Hk48: ok i found a q tutorial online: look in the menu "Q my new pc hardware" and find the menu for CD-rom and change it so the cd-rom is set to use the .iso image file
12:35 < fgb> ok, too much noice
12:35 < fgb> what's the real question?
12:36 < HK48> sorry guy I got into full screen mode and couldnt get out
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12:37 < mycroftiv> fgb: sorry, we have a lot of people trying to install who may never have used virtualization before, we were doing this in another channel but were asked to come here, we can redirect simple installation stuff to the other channel
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12:38 < fgb> ah, ok, not a problem
12:38 < fgb> I just didn't want to read teh backlog
12:38 < mycroftiv> lets send any questions from technology board people doing basic install and config to #plan9chan and stick with actual #plan9 use and configuration in here
12:38 < fgb> nah, relax
12:39 < fgb> send them here
12:39 < grai> fgb: actual plan 9 stuff: "errors about lack of permissions on /dev/draw/new" when running abaco, "various file-does-not-exist messages on fshalt"
12:39 < fgb> grai, oh!
12:39 < fgb> ok, so terminal, drawterm, what are we talking about?
12:40 < grai> (that was Alvin^)
12:40 < fgb> oh
12:40 < mycroftiv> fgb: Alvin^ has a fresh install on actual hardwre, and has had a few strange issues, such as both links and abaco erroring when run, and fshalt giving errors
12:40 < Alvin^> <Alvin^> I get the permission denied thing with abaco. When running links in graphical mode, it produces a similar result but without the error message. links without graphical mode says it has run out of memory, while I have a whole 128MB (which p9 says it detects)
12:41 < Alvin^> permission denied on /dev/draw/new that is
12:41 < fgb> alvin, what's the setup, a terminal kernel?
12:42 < Alvin^> It's a generic install using the CD's local distribution
12:42 < Alvin^> I actually overlooked possibly needing to compile some support into the kernel
12:43 < fgb> did you run /sys/lib/newuser ?
12:43 < Alvin^> no
12:43 < fgb> do it
12:43 < Alvin^> alright
12:43 < fgb> do you have a rio running?
12:43 < Alvin^> yeah
12:43 < fgb> ok, so you're glenda, right?
12:43 < Alvin^> yes
12:44 < fgb> perfect them, did you touch your lib/profile?
12:44 < Alvin^> no. All I've changed is /rc/bin/termrc to uncomment the ip/ipconfig and its condition
12:45 < fgb> good, so open a new window
12:45 < fgb> run abaco
12:45 < fgb> and paste the error mesg
12:46 < Alvin^> abaco: can't open display: initdisplay: /dev/draw/new: '/dev/draw/new' permission denied
12:46 < uriel> ls -ld /dev/draw
12:47 < Alvin^> d------ M 32 glenda glenda 0 Aug 6 17:48 /dev/draw
12:47 < Alvin^> (clock isn't set yet)
12:47 < Alvin^> give or take a few -s
12:47 < fgb> wtf!
12:48 < fgb> try chmod it, I don't why you have those perms
12:48 < Alvin^> I've tried, chmod also says I don't have permissions
12:48 < Alvin^> or should I chmod /dev/draw rather than /dev/draw/new?
12:48 < Alvin^> if so, what to?
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12:49 < fgb> chmod 775 /dev/draw
12:50 < Alvin^> chmod: can't wstat /dev/draw: permission denied
12:50 < fgb> cat user
12:50 < Alvin^> user file does not exist
12:51 < abbyz> okay, this is something elementary. If I am writing a Plan 9 fileserver which exports a file which can be read and written to, what is the plan9 way of maintaining consistency and mutual exclusion?
12:51 < fgb> a dir per client
12:51 < fgb> for instance /mnt/fs/n/files
12:51 < fgb> where n is the client number
12:52 < fgb> see the man page on /net
12:52 < fgb> cd /net/tcp and take look how it's constructed
12:52 < abbyz> I have a dir per client, but the client can have multiple processes or thread wanting to simultaneously read from/write to that file.
12:52 < Alvin^> fgb: I take it the user file not existing is part of the problem
12:52 < fgb> alvin, you've got something realy wrong there
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12:53 < Alvin^> I figured. What's the best way to fix it?
12:53 < fgb> alvin, your problem might be in your termrc
12:53 < Alvin^> I've uncommented the line "ip/ipconfig" and the if statement above
12:53 < fgb> I have no idea what you did, take a look at the original one and see what's missing
12:53 < fgb> hmm...
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12:55 < abbyz> I guess it would be good to follow the mail approach in that case?
12:55 < abbyz> have a lock file for the mbox?
12:56 < Alvin^> fgb: might it be worth wiping it and starting over? I have nothing to lose really
12:56 < uriel> Alvin^: post the output of ns somewhere
12:58 < mycroftiv> uriel: wow, ns is a great command...i had been wondering how to figure out exactly how my namespace was constructed...i wish id learned that 72+ hours ago :)
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12:59 < fgb> hah
12:59 < uriel> ns(1) is just a shorthand for cat /proc/$pid/ns
12:59 < fgb> there is a man intro
12:59 < Alvin^> I don't have a web browser, so rafbing it or whatever isn't really possible
12:59 < fgb> with lot's of stuff
12:59 < fgb> alvin, wait a sec
12:59 < fgb> I have a nopaste script
12:59 -!- mennis [n=mennis@adsl-068-016-104-079.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #plan9
12:59 < fgb> but I don't know if sources is up
13:00 < uriel> sources is down as of a few min ago
13:00 < Alvin^> if you rafb the script I can hget it
13:00 < fgb> hget http://sirviente.9grid.es/sources/contrib/fgb/rc/nopaste  > nopaste; chmod 775 nopaste
13:01 < fgb> % ns | nopaste
13:01 < Alvin^> thanks
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13:03 < Alvin^> http://rafb.net/p/Hu0uKz14.html
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13:07 < fgb> ok, try
13:07 < fgb> cat '#c/user'
13:08 < Alvin^> glenda
13:08 < fgb> exactly
13:08 < fgb> so open a new rio window
13:08 < fgb> cat  /dev/user
13:08 < fgb> does it work?
13:09 < Alvin^> yes, again glenda
13:09 < fgb> good, run abaco there
13:09 < fgb> namespaces are per process, which mean per window
13:10 < Alvin^> I'm still getting the same error
13:10 < Capso> I gave up on the bayes pipeto.
13:10 < fgb> alvin, bind -a '#i' /dev; abaco
13:10 < Capso> For some goddamn reason, it's giving me an unable to create /dev/label error, each time I mail myself.
13:11 < Alvin^> fgb: yet again the same error
13:12 < Alvin^> perhaps I should reinstall plan9 and then try again, see if I get similar results
13:12 < fgb> ls -l '#i/'
13:13 < fgb> no, not reinstall, maybe reboot
13:13 < Alvin^> I've rebooted many times with this problem
13:13 < fgb> so, the only graphical program you're running is rio
13:13 < Alvin^> a;sp. #i/draw and #i/winname are listed
13:13 < fgb> you can't run acme either
13:13 < fgb> I wanted to know the perms on the files
13:13 < Alvin^> acme runs fine
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13:13 < fgb> acme runs fine, but abaco doesn't.. wtf
13:14 < Alvin^> hold on
13:14 < Alvin^> I misunderstood you when you said 'new rio window' -- I thought you meant new acme window
13:14 < Alvin^> it works fine in a new rio window
13:14 < fgb> you can't run abaco insideacme!
13:14 < fgb> er, acme
13:14 < fgb> you can't run graphical programs in acme
13:15 < Alvin^> oh!
13:15 < Alvin^> that solves roughly everything
13:15 < Alvin^> when running haltfs, should that also not be in acme?
13:15 < fgb> if you have the skills and the time you could add that feature to acme
13:15 < fgb> from outside
13:15 < Alvin^> alright
13:15 < fgb> also patch(1)/create
13:15 < Alvin^> well, maybe one day if I have the time
13:15 < Alvin^> hrm?
13:16 < fgb> some programs need some files, tha acme doesn't provide
13:16 < fgb> rio multiplexes some files provided by the kernel
13:16 < Alvin^> ah
13:16 < fgb> a win window in acme does that too, but not for all the files
13:16 < Capso> Are either of you outside of rio, in the command-line, at the moment?
13:16 < Alvin^> so acme doesn't emulate as much as a normal rio window does?
13:17 < fgb> alvin, again if you have the skills, you add that feature, I hacked acme to get graphical programs in it
13:17 < fgb> but it doesn't really work as expected
13:17 < Alvin^> is plan9 all C?
13:17 < Capso> Dialect of C.
13:18 < fgb> and rc and awk
13:18 < fgb> iso  99 is a dialect of c too
13:18 < Alvin^> in what respect? differing standard library?
13:18 < fgb> yes, Plan 9 is c
13:18 < Alvin^> maybe I will look into it one day then
13:18 < fgb> alvin see /sys/doc/prog*.ps
13:18 < Alvin^> ah, thanks
13:18 < fgb> page(1) to read ps|pdf|jpg|etc
13:18 < fgb> even .doc
13:19  * uriel doubts acme will ever do graphics, it isn't really designed for it
13:19 < Capso> Really? I thought you just converted .doc to plain text.
13:19 < Alvin^> I am new to plan9, so 'one day' refers to when I am fully acquainted with the system
13:19 < fgb> capso, you can do both
13:19 < fgb> alvin, do a man intro also
13:19 < Alvin^> alrighty
13:19 < fgb> or better man -P intro;
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13:19 < uriel> Omero is probably the way to go for a acme-like-with-graphics
13:20 < fgb> alvin basically Plan 9 has it's own libc, but provides APE an ansi/posix env
13:20 < fgb> so if you do % ape/psh; # you get a ksh with some posix compliant commands
13:21 < fgb> like a cc that knows about the standard headers
13:21 < Alvin^> I see
13:21 < fgb> also a make(1)
13:21 < fgb> it's all in /sys/doc
13:21 < Alvin^> does that mean stuff compiled in an APE environment will only work under said environment then, and not under plan9 natively?
13:21 < Alvin^> or natively as in outside the environment
13:21 < fgb> ok
13:21 < fgb> you have libc and libap
13:22 < fgb> native programs get linked to libc, ape ones to libap
13:22 < fgb> you get a socket emulation layer, etc
13:22 < Alvin^> I see
13:22 < fgb> they are different libs
13:22 < Alvin^> yeah
13:23 < Alvin^> but do libap linked programs require an APE environment to run in?
13:23 < fgb> ok, what's an environment?
13:24 < fgb> not really, links is compiled with ape
13:24 < fgb> but if you're program wants a /bin/sh
13:24 < Alvin^> oh, I thought when you said 'but provides APE an ansi/posix env' you meant it required you to do something on an OS-level to run it
13:24 < fgb> then you run ape/psh; yourprog
13:24 < fgb> not really, it's all done at the lib level
13:24 < Alvin^> alright, I just misunderstood then
13:25 < Alvin^> I guess for plan9 exclusive things the plan9 libc is more powerful though
13:25 < fgb> exactly, just compare
13:26 < fgb> fd = dial("tcp!host!port", 0, 0, 0);
13:26 < Alvin^> I'll look into it some time
13:26 < fgb> to sockets
13:26 < fgb> 2 lines more and you get ssl
13:26 < Alvin^> that's quite nifty
13:26 < fgb> with the same fd, not need for a special read or write
13:27 < Alvin^> that's some pretty good abstraction
13:27 < fgb> I find my irc client in rc quite instructive
13:27 < fgb> it shows a lot about Plan 9
13:27 < fgb> http://sirviente.9grid.es/sources/contrib/fgb/rc/ircrc
13:28 < fgb> and of course there is the intro in the #chan topic
13:29 < Alvin^> exciting
13:30 < mycroftiv> fgb thanks for so much help and id like to know the simplest way to share files between random machines on the net. is it something like bind somedir /n/somedir, then srvfs 9fs /n/somedir, then aux/listen1 tcp!*!564 /n/somedir?
13:30 < fgb> there is exportfs
13:30 < fgb> see the man page
13:31 < Alvin^> fgb: thanks for the information
13:31 < fgb> np
13:31 < mycroftiv> fgb: i know, ive been reading the bind, import, exportfs, srv, listen manpages and i feel like Im almost getting it...but still pretty clueless, did the commands i just listed mean anything or was it all wrong?
13:32 < fgb> listen1 is for diff things
13:32 < fgb> to exec a file everytime a client connects
13:33 < fgb> I'd just make fossil to listen to the network
13:33 < mycroftiv> fgb: that is exactly what i want to do, i know this is preschool plan 9 :)
13:34 < fgb> np
13:34 < fgb> I've always have a single machine, so my needs are very different from the rest
13:35 < mycroftiv> i dont know how to make fossil listen to the network, what do i bind where? just exportfs -someflags /some/dir?
13:35 < fgb> no
13:35 < fgb> 1 you need an auth server
13:35 < fgb> or configure a standalone cpu/auth server
13:36 < fgb> it's in the wiki, don't know if the wiki is up right now
13:36 < fgb> 2) you configure fossil to listen
13:36 < fgb> see fossilcons(8)
13:37 < mycroftiv> fgb: aha i think fossilcons is the magic ingredient i was missing in my understanding, this manpage is exactly to the point, thank you
13:37 < fgb> anyways, to do auth, you need the  auth server
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13:37 < mycroftiv> fgb: that can just be run as a process on my machine right, no need to invoke anything more heavy duty
13:37 < fgb> fossil is started everytime you boot
13:37 < fgb> ps |grep fossil
13:38 < mycroftiv> fgb: yes i know fossil is my filesystem
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13:38 < uriel> *storage* file server
13:39 < mycroftiv> uriel: very good point -- remembering those distinctions is the key to learning 9 i guess, all the stuff that is static in other OSes becomes dynamic
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--- Log opened Wed Aug 06 14:16:07 2008
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14:21 < now> Which is the best browser for plan9?(IE, Safari, FF, or Opera?)
14:22 < mycroftiv> now: abaco or links is your choice, and you probably want both installed
14:24 < now> lol, k
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14:24 < olegfink> in contradiction with most users I find htmlfmt's rendering much better than that of lynx (and probably links)
14:24 < olegfink> probably I just don't use table stuff enough
14:27 < mycroftiv> there's also the 'all useful features' port of mozilla, but its pretty minimalistic, although it runs really fast
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14:30 < cinap_lenrek> i run the real mozilla on plan9 for creative masoshism
14:31 < olegfink> I just can't figure out if I want linux on my laptop
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14:31 < cinap_lenrek> usualy, you dont ;-)
14:31 < cinap_lenrek> wb fgb
14:31 < olegfink> and if I don't, do I want linuxemu and/or equis
14:31 < fgb> tahnks, vista rebooted on me
14:31 < fgb> s/tahnks/thanks/
14:32 < cinap_lenrek> vista?
14:32 < fgb> yes
14:32 < Alvin^> mycroftiv: where is this port of mozilla?
14:33 < fgb> cinap, yep, and update auto restarted the machine
14:33 < cinap_lenrek> Alvin^: its an april fools joke from 20h... its in his contrib
14:33 < mycroftiv> alvin^: the 'all useful features' port thing is kind of a joke, the all useful features port just prints a few words on the screen really
14:33 < Alvin^> hilarious
14:33 < cinap_lenrek> it reduces your disk quota by 10 megabytes and starts ED! err... that was the other
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14:34 < olegfink> when vxwin32 is ready I have some nice experiment to do
14:34 < fgb> alvin, I use cinap's linuxemu + my equis
14:34 < fgb> it gets me opera 9.5
14:34 < olegfink> WinFLP vs. small Linux installation as 'the device driver' for 9vx for less-capable systems than my T23
14:35 < Alvin^> fgb: oh, opera renders nicely
14:35 < cinap_lenrek> fgb: get a current version of linuxemu... i'v fixed a nasty mmap bug... now even firefox/mozilla runs
14:35 < fgb> cinap, great :)
14:36 < fgb> alvin, http://www.tip9ug.jp/who/fgb/imgs.html
14:36 < cinap_lenrek> fgb: i found it when trying some busybox linux binaries and found that anything crashed... the bss section was not right padded... and the mmap2 call takes the file offset in pages, not bytes like the old mmap call...
14:36 < fgb> if I'm not mistaken there are some screenshots of opera there
14:36 < Alvin^> fgb: what program do you use for screenshots?
14:36 < fgb> alvin topng < /dev/screen > /tmp/screen.png
14:37 < fgb> for windows samething but /dev/wsys/n/window
14:37 < Alvin^> that's the most logical screenshot method I've ever seen
14:37 < __20h__> The all useful port prints "Mozilla!".
14:37 < cinap_lenrek> also... signal switching is wrong in the old... i found out that it is pretty valid for linux code to never return from a signal handler... pthread for example just does a longjump out of it... i needed to keep the return state on the linux stack itself to get it freed... not allocate "kernel" memory for it
14:37 < __20h__> Gopher is enough, there is no need for Mozilla.
14:38 < mycroftiv> when I started out with plan9 a few days ago I knew so little that I didnt realize there was any software other than the base .iso, I was '
14:38 < mycroftiv> 'browsing the web' via ftpfs, it was great
14:38 < fgb> cinap, nices to hear it, props
14:39 < olegfink> mycroftiv, base install includes a c compiler, so that's pretty much enough for anything
14:39 < mycroftiv> olegfink: yeah, i actually ended up getting some stuff built by grabbing source code and making it, before i found about contrib
14:39 < Alvin^> where is this contrib thing?
14:40 < mycroftiv> alvin^: currently offline, coming back soon, i guess its mirrored? there were a couple links to mirrors earlier I think
14:40 < cinap_lenrek> 20h: is here a gopher client/server for plan9?
14:40 < __20h__> I wrote a server for it, but it's unmaintained.
14:40 < __20h__> I can't mount my porn archiv on Plan 9 anymore, so I have to serve it over Gopher.
14:40 < __20h__> (on Linux)
14:40 < Alvin^> mycroftiv: what's the official link?
14:41 < mycroftiv> alvin^: when sources is up, you just 9fs sources in a terminal, then its all mounted under /n/sources, most of the good stuff in /n/sources/contrib, and theres even an auto package installer you can use for some things
14:41 < cinap_lenrek> has someone indexed the gopher space?
14:42 < __20h__> Veronica indexes the Gopher space.
14:42 < cinap_lenrek> 20h: have you the source of your gopherserver arround?
14:42 < __20h__> It should be in my contrib dir.
14:42 < cinap_lenrek> ok
14:42 < __20h__> The old one.
14:42 < Alvin^> mycroftiv: so when you access stuff it fetches it?
14:42 < Alvin^> a la remote FS?
14:43 < cinap_lenrek> argg... soruces down of course
14:44 < cinap_lenrek> found it
14:44 < cinap_lenrek> :-)
14:45 < mycroftiv> alvin^: yes exactly, sources filesystem on the remote server is just mounted in your /n/directory
14:45 < Alvin^> wonderful
14:45 < mycroftiv> alvin^: so you can just browse around in it, and copy stuff you want over to your /usr/FOO/tmp directory and make it there, or if its setup to use contrib/install you do that
14:46 < Alvin^> fun
14:46 < fgb> there is a contrib index in the wiki
14:46 < fgb> but I guess is down now
14:46 < __20h__> Hah, contrib/install.
14:47 < fgb> relax
14:47 < mycroftiv> yeah actually even the main page seems down for me
14:47 < __20h__> I just wanted to make a joke. :P
14:47 < fgb> http://www.tip9ug.jp/who/fgb/contrib.pdf
14:48 < uriel> hey cinap!
14:48 < mycroftiv> i havent really studied the licenses for plan9 other than understanding that its basically foss, is there a legal reason that people havent made plan 9 distros including software from contrib?
14:49 < __20h__> I'm not allowed to produce or develop nukes with it.
14:49 < fgb> mycroftiv, what would be the point in doing that, more stuff to mantain with no gain
14:49 < __20h__> No nukes, no fun.
14:49 < fgb> mycroftiv, Plan 9's license should be more free than gpl
14:50 < fgb> mycroftiv, http://www.opensource.org/licenses/lucent1.02.php
14:53 < mycroftiv> fgb: wow that is a very open license, is that the license that most contrib is under also?
14:53 < fgb> I guess so, most of us really don't care
14:55 < mycroftiv> fgb: there has been interest in trying to produce a 'plug and play' install cd for people interested in joining a plan 9 based distributed computational resource system, so that is why I ask
14:56 < fgb> you can create you're own cd
14:56 < fgb> Plan B is just Plan 9,
14:56 < mycroftiv> fgb: exactly, thats the plan
14:56 < mycroftiv> fgb: just wanted to make sure i was legally clear to package stuff together and distribute it
14:56 < fgb> when vesa was experimental Christoph used to distribute an iso with the vesa kernel in 9grid.de
14:57 < mycroftiv> fgb: im actually already distributing a handful of tarballs while sources is down, mostly just abaco and links
14:57 < fgb> mycroftiv, ron has thnx that comes with abaco and other stuff if I'm not mistaken
14:58 < mycroftiv> also, are there any current publicly available tcp roots for boot?
14:58 < fgb> sources, 9grid.es
14:58 < mycroftiv> fgb: wow, i didnt realize you could boot from sources, thanks
15:01 < fgb> never tried to boot from sources, but IIRC erik said he does it
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15:04 < uriel> I think maht has mentioned booting from sources too
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15:06 < mycroftiv> there oughta be hundreds of different public TCP roots, and 500,000+ p9 machines gridded at every moment, and I think there will be...i just dont see any other OS with any real potential to do anything fundamentally NEW
15:07 < mycroftiv> well, apart from the other distributed oses
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15:07 < uriel> mycroftiv: you are really new around here I guess...
15:07  * uriel sighs
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15:07 < uriel> the naivite of ignorance
15:08 < mycroftiv> im 100% new
15:09 < mycroftiv> all i know is that ive been using computers intensively since 1980 and plan9 is the first OS that ever seems like its designed correctly and offers the potential to manipulate data without rigid predefined frameworks
15:09 < eekee> Everyone's either mesmerised by microsoft or dazzled by linux
15:09 < mycroftiv> i have on my webserver an archive of 1200+ posts from people over the past week basically going nuts as they discovered what plan 9 was and what it was supposed to do